Wideband O2 related subpage of MembersPage/VasilisP
- [10581_AAN_running_Vemslogs.zip] provided by owner.
- Same owner is also claiming that "now the ECU is not able to run the car."
- what is really going on with this ? What can be considered real, and what is misunderstanding, or "excuse" ? (the vemslogs seem absolutely real).
New ECU (v3/10581 AAN with NTC MAT input, oid 10875); config file uploaded as requested in the order comment (without any change => config not changed in any way; the LSU4.2/LSU4.9 option was not changed, the paper provided with any LSU4.9 sensor instructs to check that 4.9 is configured).
Please note that [ECU with motronic55] (the controller contains the 27k nernstpullup and is compatible with both LSU4.2 and LSU4.9) can be ordered with accessories:
- "loom for LSU4.2" which is compatible with [LSU4.2] and very old fw.
- "Loom for LSU4.9"
- "with_LSU4sensor: yes", THIS WAS ACTUALLY ORDERED, which means unspecified either LSU4.9 or LSU4.2
- so it is IMPOSSIBLE that wrong type of LSU4 sensor was sent, because either LSU4.9 or LSU4.2 fulfills the order. Before sensor calibration sensor type needs to be set in config, see [VT Online Help].
- You clearly reported that you received LSU4.9 sensor and you had to set LSU4.9 in config yourself (congrats !), now reporting that you received LSU4.2 sensor but ordered LSU4.9 (which is not the case).
- So did you receive LSU4.2 than ? Which is actually true? Either is fine for the order, but technically it matters if wbo2 related supports is needed.
It would be really great if you could finally report correctly if you are actually using LSU4.9 or LSU4.2 ... Otherwise debugging your "wideband problem" is a giant waste of time; for the ECU that (you said) "will not run the car", while it is actually running in the logs.
If you purchase LSU4.2 sensor (because you prefer that), and write "please include small loom for AAN SSC5-LSU4.2" in the order comment, we'll include the loom for no extra charge: that allows to use new fw or reproduce the old setup (1.2.11 fw, config) with old fw which is not LSU4.9 certified.
Upload ini file - note: VT ini-s must be uptodate
When using new fw (eg. 1.2.31), VT must have all the new ini-s for it (preferrably the latest).
- Use the newest VT (nightly, or [dev])
- AND "Preferences / fetch latest ini files from web"
- that might be the step why uploading old config to new fw shows so good fuelpw match on bench (for many-many testcases), and it ends up slightly rich when uploading without up-to-date ini-s (which can still be tuned of course, but more work).
- of course we would need to compare the actual vemscfg (or vemslog) saved from the device (should be provided with any report, but it wasn't), and the old config properly uploaded to new fw and saved'.
- can you detail the "updated the config" ? Or perhaps provide the "updated" .vemslog or .vemscfg for review) ?
- When i say UPDATED i mean the VE tables which were last known to work. the HTA 12A config i asked you to use in order for the car to run propeply i expected you would have had the WBO2 4.9 checked, as the ECU comes with that WB sensor and not the old 4.2 which was in the config. I noticed that myself.
The 'update' was on VE and lamda tables that i had reviewed myself after recent checks.
Cool, thanks.
Before the engine starts with the key turned to the pre-ignition state, my rev meter jumps to above 2000rpm and my dash warning lights up the LOW OIL LEVEL. Both stay up unless i start the car.
- so it seems the low oil-level is unlit when engine is started and oil-pressure is present (good)
- the RPM tacho also shows correct value when engine is started, if I understand. Showing 0-7000 RPM is well within the normal function of the dash (be assured, dash won't be harmed electronically from 8900 RPM or higher, or from any 0-12V signal coming in the dash-tach input from ECU),
- and lighting up low oil pressure is very good indication the dash works as intended, and actually doing what it was designed for; with no risk of damage (these dashes worn mostly because of solder-corrosion and cold-warm heat-cycling, not because of any voltage input well within the normal voltage range).
I have only connected the WBO2 sensor and nothing more.
- Is this some kind of ground current reflected in the gauges?
- I need this fixed and corrected as it may cause longterm problems with my dash on parts that are no longer available
- There should be no high-voltage or anything similar that could damage the dash.
Injectors=... cc/min, type=... Fuel pressure= ... bar above MAP pressure
I noticed that all my map was too rich (ECU-s nowadays come with 1.2.31 fw, but in oid10875 order comment ancient 1.2.11 config was specified, and uploaded accordingly).
- Yes, the semantics in fw changed slightly a few years ago and not exactly same VE (or reqfuel) values are needed for same injector-pulsewidth (multiple benchtests showed within 1.5%, definitely much lower than 15%). Usually no difference when upgrading, but when a very old (eg. 1.2.11) config / tables are uploaded to new firmware (eg. 1.2.23 or later) => it might be somewhat rich (changes are on the safe side at least, but tuning is good... It is actually tunable as the main feature, so that it can always be tuned to the actual setup including injectors, fuel pressure regulator, head, turbo, firmware-generation).
- if you post an 1.2.11 vemslog and 1.2.31 vemslog on same engine (under similar conditions, eg MAT, CLT), we'll verify and investigate. If possible, point us to ...sec and ...sec time positions with comparable input-vector but more than 1.5% difference in injpw/(MAP*VE*req_fuel * enrichments).
- EGO was reading around 85 on all map regions
- ... aha, so removing appr 15% fuel(pw). (also same effect if eg fuel pressure is 4 bar instead of 3 bar, or if injector is different. I assume same types, just the fw differed - actually very same engine if I understand... But than, as the SSC5 WBO2-connection is backwards-compatible, your existing old LSU4.2 sensor can be used with the old SSC5-LSU4.2 loom, with old wbo2 sensor calibration value, and even old 1.2.11 fw... with same behavior that you liked that every possible way that matters - obviously ECU serialnr differ and new ECU has a bit more protection against installation abuse, eg. on analog inputs )
- If multiplier is that consistent (including idle?), might be easier to compensate with req_fuel (*=0.85). Just in case, check warmup and afterstart enrichment (is warmup enrichment 100% at CLT=72C ? Maybe it's ~115% causing the excess fuel / richness ? The view / calc model has a fuel pw related selection (try right-click) where the calculation can be followed, all factors of it... very useful.
Because of contradicting info if LSU4.9 or LSU4.2 is used, WBO2 setup stalled (argh, is this for real ?)
- When i calibrated the WBO2 for the first time the 4.2 was selected, I calibrated the lamda sensor and used 214 number to achieve a 20.9 air calibration.
- and considering latest info, and loom pinout matching LSU4.2, that might be perfectly correct (and than anything with LSU4.9 setting is on the wrong track and explains many things)
LSU4.9 setting below - if actually using LSU4.2 sensor, the mess / speculation (about sensor being over-sensitive) below just caused by the wrong main setting,
After changing the wide band setting to match the LSU4.9 sensor and tried to recalibrate, it went to 255 for me to have 20.1 at air.
Ahh OK, so actually very close. As a car owner, if got absolutely certain about LSU4.9 type, keep the 255 config value. (and if you really care, compensate for the over-sensitive LSU4.9 sensor with lambdatarget=0.89 where 0.88 intended; 1.00 where 1.00)
- PLEASE, Can you share your measurement of the sensor Rcal = ... Ohm ? with DVM.
- With that simple info, for no charge to you, we were considering to send an LSU4.9 sensor that is verified not at the extremely-sensitive end of the Bosch gaussian distribution (and we'd verify a stock of 300+ similar sensors without heating, to see how many are that extremely sensitive, if any).
- i am a car owner, and im afraid i have no means to measure what you ask. I can only tune the ECU.
- OK. Although an Ohm measurement is the simplest thing that comes up during install (verifying injectors, igncoils, CLT/MAT sensors, WBO2 sensors, wires, all routine part of install+tune - even with a factory ECU if it comes to real-life diagnostic ). Anyway, glad to here you can tune the ECU, because that solves it all: you should be able to tune it as you wish.
- do you have another sensor (LSU4.9 or LSU4.2)?
- I have a 4.2 lambda sensor lightly used. If i am to recalibrate should i clean it?
- is it possible the sensor was dropped (eg. to concrete floor) ?
- SENSOR WAS NOT DROPPED!!!!
- note that if WBO2 calibration is lower than optimal (eg. not calibrated, or maxed out), the WBO2 reading is still REPRODUCIBLE.
- It just means that lower deviation from 1.0 lamda is displayed (lower than the real 20.9% O2 value is displayed; and higher than real lambda value displayed:
| lambdatarget (=lambda reading) | desired lambda (real lambda) |
| LR | LR, or LR-0.01 below 0.9 |
| 0.79 | 0.78 |
| 0.80 | 0.79 |
| 0.81 | 0.80 |
| 0.82 | 0.81 |
| 0.83 | 0.82 |
| 0.84 | 0.83 |
| 0.85 | 0.84 |
| 0.86 | 0.85 |
| 0.87 | 0.86 |
| 0.88 | 0.87 |
| 0.89 | 0.88 |
| 0.90 | 0.90 |
| 0.91 | 0.91 |
| 0.92 | 0.92 |
| 0.93 | 0.93 |
| 0.94 | 0.94 |
| 0.95 | 0.95 |
| 0.96 | 0.96 |
| 0.97 | 0.97 |
| 0.98 | 0.98 |
| 0.99 | 0.99 |
| 1.00 | 1.00 |
| 1.01 | 1.01 |
(some multiply with zzz constant and say "AFR" that is even more unnatural).
Unless any followup info, use that -0.01 under 0.9 lambda formula to compensate the miscalibration (255 instead of 258) for the sensor apparently living on the extreme (RCal) end of the Bosch-LSU4 calibration Gaussian-distribution (being very sensitive, interestingly, so lower Ip current was needed at 20.9% O2.
Any air pressure, elevation, humidity data perhaps ? Would only be useful with Rcal Ohm data though)
- it does not even prevent closed loop feedback EGO/lambda mixture control. VT can be configured to compensate, or another sensor can be used of course.
I am now using my old VEMS and i can send this unit back for all necessary checks.
It can be tuned where the engine is.
Maybe send the sensor if anything (but not before measuring Rcal).
I also tried 1.2.30 version without any success.
That is no surprise, as 1.2.30 works exactly as configured just like 1.2.31 (it's just that 1.2.31 has some new convenience and trigger features).
The key to success is measurements (even if just a few and simple in this case, they are important).
What can be wrong ?
- perhaps all is good, as the vemslogs indicate... there are multiple contradictions in all claims (eg. multiple times stated and indirectly indicated that LSU4.9 received and had to change config from LSU4.2 to match LSU4.9 ... than he decides he received LSU4.2 ... since order was "with_LSU4sensor: yes", which means unspecified either LSU4.9 or LSU4.2; => either is good if configured so, and cable-pinout matches: we just need to verify accordingly)
- the sensor might be faulty (we do NOT heat the sensor, the sensor is tested by the manufacturer - Bosch in this case). But according to logs (and even calibration) the sensor seem to work and respond well.
- or perhaps the SSC5-LSU4.9 small loom might have 2 wires swapped, or perhaps all mirrored ? (we test the v3, and the manufacturer of the loom tests the loom, we just supply that from the shelf).
- still not properly confirmed below - confirmation only possible if the LSU4.9 / LSU4.2 becomes certainty; although probably good, otherwise vemslogs would look different
- we test the v3 carefully before sendout, but of course nernst or pump HW problem cannot be completely ruled out (or misconfiguration, which we should verify also from vemscfg / vemslog).
- No indication of problem found in vemslog
If you publish the required (basic) measurements, and still not diagnosed the issue (which, with the vemslogs, seems to be rather misunderstanding or bubble), then we'll send you LSU4.9 if necessary (a sensor that we might pre-test for you).
Besides the measurement, write the SSC5 pin number and the wire color for each pin (and the wire-color at the LSU4.9 sensor !), and verify connectivity and pin-correctness of the small SSC5-LSU4.9 loom according to the [LSU4.9 pdf].
- DC voltage between SSC5/pin4 pump- and GND ? (4V or so ?)
- SSC5/ ... ? loomwirecolor/sensorwirecolor ?
- DC voltage between SSC5/pin1 nernst and GND, if 1k (or other, 1..100k documented value) resistor is connected between nernst and GND ? Near 1/(1+27)*5V = 0.179V ?
- SSC5/ ... ? loomwirecolor/sensorwirecolor ?
- DC voltage between SSC5/pin2 heater+ and GND ? (12V or around?)
- SSC5/ ... ? loomwirecolor/sensorwirecolor ?
- DC voltage between SSC5/pin3 heater- and SSC5/pin2 heater+ ? Can you see the sensor internally glow to cherry-red and get warm, and slightly smell while the voltage climbs up above 6..9V when WBO2 calibration is started ?
- SSC5/ ... ? loomwirecolor/sensorwirecolor ?
- optional measurement if NOT already diagnosed by the above. DC voltage between SSC5/pin5 pump+ and SSC5/pin4 pump-, with 100 Ohm between pump+ and nernst; and 100 Ohm between nernst and pump-?
- SSC5/ ... ? loomwirecolor/sensorwirecolor ?
Refused to measure, but most likely all should be fine... It seems it's just the actual LSU4.9 sensor is at the most sensitive extreme end of the Bosch Rcal calibration Gauss-distribution (wbo2 calibration ~258..259 not 255; Rcal maybe ~226 Ohm ?).
- Marcel, as i mentioned to the email. It is most likely that VEMS has sent the wrong sensor to me when ordered the 4.9
- No, you said that "The lamda sensor 4.9 you provided cannot be calibrated now either"
- that means that you were sent LSU4.9;
- also, you didn't choose LSU4.2 or LSU4.9, but the LSU4 which can be either. So it's impossible that the wrong sensor type was sent. (it might be theoretically possible during summer holidays that the cable included was for the other type - but HEY, you would notice and report that the connector size is different and cannot be mated... wouldn't you ? )
"there is no attachment of .2 or .9 on the invoice and i dont understand why"
Because it is IRRELEVANT for the invoice. Logic dictates that the installer looks at the real sensor (not the invoice, which is not involved in the circuit !) and configures accordingly.
- In addition, as i connect my previous ECU no oil warning coming up
- Even though as you say it may not have any implications, i do not want to take the chance and ruin an original dash of an audi RS2
- Do not worry: if the dash breaks because of 0/12V tachin signal (which is always used for these dashes), we'll replace the dash.
- Therefore i would like to send both the lambda probe and ECU back to you for inspection and checks of the grounds and i would like this ECU to be tested on a vehicle before you send it back.
- Of course, just follow [instructions first]. I would like to receive clear reports without multiple contradictions.
Hello VasilisP,
To determine what is going on please provide a bit more information, please answer the following questions for me:
- are you using a new (or old please specify) lsu 4.2 or lsu 4.9 probe during the free-air calibration and is it in free-air not in exhaust ?
- The first 4.9 lsu calibration (with the wrong selection on vemstune, 4.2 instead of 4.9 matching the LSU4.9 sensor received) was done with a sensor completely new. The second calibration where the 255 was reached without being able to calibrate was done after the same 4.9 sensor was used with the car idling and myself looking at the trigger with a strobe light. So basically very little use.
- is your wiring from ssc5 to wideband connector verified and known good ?
- My wiring is as sent from VEMS shop:
| SSC5 | WBO2 | color | wirecolor inside sensor |
| 1 | 1 | black | ... |
| 2 | 3 | thick red | ... |
| 3 | 4 | brown | ... |
| 4 | 5 | blue | ... |
| 5 | 6 | thin red | FILL THESE IN |
Checked and verified
And found wrong ? To me it looks wrong for LSU4.9 and correct for LSU4.2 !
It seems to be made to LSU4.2 pinout (it's a miracle that it works with LSU4.9 at all)... See [aan_doc.pdf]
Are you sure ? Is it the new LSU4.9 cable with small WBO2 connector ?
- unfortunately Bosch changed the pin numbering => do NOT use "WBO2" when talking about the connector, use "LSU4.9" or "LSU4.2"
- Can you photo so that wirecolors / orientation and size is seen ? (without misunderstanding about LSU4.9 connector pinout)
- Apparently and after an email from Marcel, it seems that VEMS shop has sent me the wrong lambda probe.
- that is impossible, as the motronic55 was ordered with the LSU4=yes option that allows either type; not the (also selectable), more specific LSU4.2 or LSU4.9 which specifies type clearly
- when I read about the connector being different, I thought the size was slightly smaller, but when included in the package I get a connector to go with everything I thought I was sent the correct parts
- so it sounds now you received LSU4.2 (which is correct part) with correct loom for it, that has correct connector, and correct pinout
- In addition I didn't have my old 4.2LSU nearby to compare.
- But maybe you can read the numbers from the sensor ? Or measure the dimensions of the sensor connector ? Or take a photo (maybe with some ruler next to the connector, to better see scale ) ?
- when trying to calibrate your sensor, does it get warm ?
- It does
- could you make a vemslog of wideband calibration warmup cycle (let it run for 4-5min) and add the vemslog to your page here for review.
Using the provided information i will provide hints on how to proceed.
Best regards, Dave
Log review (Dave) [10581_AAN_running_Vemslogs.zip]
- first log does not contain warmup data, but small engine start in the end engine running fine
- second log contains warmup sequence, heater and pump control all confirmed good lsu 4.9 selected in config, o2 reading almost spot on (with wideband calibration 214) i am not sure what the guys problem is; as far as i can see wideband control is working perfectly
- v3.3_u010581-2015.09.03 09h
- 3d log review has engine running (idling) wideband warmup, running exactly the configured lambda target 1.02 with ego 100-101% i have yet to see the first log of it not working
- 4th log some throttle blipping car seems stationary, otherwise no problems apart from way too much cold accel add (and mult)
See FileArea (how to upload files). Generic instructions on MembersPage
Can you help us understand how the misunderstandings arise ?
- Is English your native language ? ( parts shipped to UK. And apparently native, but maybe your 2nd language ?)
- Does Vasilios M. (guy from Munich, Germany, but usually shipping to Trikala, Greece) support you "connecting the sensors and map switching option etc." ?
- his discount (granted just recently) involved supporting you, but there is no sign of it whatsoever !
He even ordered "VEMS motronic55" since than, with same spec, but with discount. So atm this looks exactly like:
- order a device full-price
- referring that and get discount, ordered with discount
- asking to refund the full-price, and keep the same spec discounted device ?
- Answered email about this subject
Answer to both parties above Marcel and Dave
Look, just to clarify (and i will be ringing later to speak to someone)
1. the ECU ordered by me ( i am not Vasilis M from Munich but Vasilis P from the UK. I have no connection to Vasilis M from munich) was meant as an upgrade to my current ECU +/- spare. My current ECU was bought from EFIExpress back in 2009.
2. I ordered the ECU with the intention to have 1.2.31 and LSU 4.9 implemented as i am very busy with 2 small children, use the car almost everyday and was hoping to make a quick swap with everything being pnp.
3. When i placed the order, by checking the link: use lsu4 on the motronic pnp vems shop page, it links to LSU4.9 so i THOUGHT if i tick the WITH LSU4 i would be getting the LSU4.9 and not 4.2. This is where the problems start, as i assume i have a new ECU with a 4.9 connector and loom all ready to be fitted. I have schematics to go with it as were included in the order. Last time i fitted the LSU4.2 was in 2009 so no i did not check the size or the cable color on vems wiki to clarify what i had been sent. This was my mistake and i do apologise for not noticing sooner as the lamda issue and clarifications could have been avoided.
I therefore have an ECU without the 27k nerst pinup and without the 4.9 lamda. As i mentioned above the 2 lamda sensors (my old one 4.2 and the one sent from VEMS are IDENTICAL, have same size connectors but have different part numbers.
4. Besides the LSU issue, the dash issue is equally important to me. I cannot accept to use this ECU with it having some kind of electronic malfunction whereas it should not as a brand new item. This OIL level warning before startup can be very confusing and will force me to regularly check for oil level in a perfectly ok engine. I find this unacceptable for a brand new ECU to be working like this and vems trying to say: sure, its ok, it wont damage anything, when it shouldnt be doing it in the first place!!!
I would therefore like the ECU to be sent back to be checked for the above fault. If it cannot be fixed id like a refund. If it can be fixed, then id like the 27k pinup included and ill buy the 4.9LSU with the loom to connect to the ECU when sent back.
thanks
Spoke to Marcel on the phone and clarified matters. Many thanks
ordered the 4.9LSU sensor