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Strobe shows different angle than what we expect
with (InputTrigger/ShortGapTrigger) InputTrigger/SubaruTrigger :
- I downloaded the config from one subaru
- uploaded to another
- ign advance is off, just like it was also off on the other Subaru
- just to clarify: the ignadv is displayed OK in megatune, (and on LCD mlp00 bottom right corner), but the strobe shows the ignadv changes half angle of what it should.
- Yep, what is written in megatune sparktable, is what is showed on display,and megatune.
- can it be that the advance is calculated from the cam ,and not the cas?? so it´s every time the 3tooth is passing??
I was tuning the car last night, and the advance seems to be off:
- strobed at 10degrees, so this is right
- if I write 40 degrees in the megatune sparktable
- measured on the crank, of course (not on cam)
- some smart strobes are confused by the wasted spark ignition, this actually happens quite often.
- Can you do measurements the 40deg and 10 deg with same strobe settings (or a dumb strobe, and see angle difference on engine ?)
- 40deg is 25deg measured, and 10deg is 10deg measured
- type
- switches
- what knobs
- display
- ...
- the timinggun is about the oldest that can be had, there is no buttons on it, i will check if i can see a name on it, but i think it´s around 20-25years old.
- if it lights up at the time of spark (seems likely if it has no buttons) and you read from the rotating crankshaft, than the chance of getting it measured wrong is minimal indeed.
- Want to test with Sami's 1.0.77 compile that Jorgen drove for quite a while now and found good. Anyone have that firmware image ?
- yes i will give it a try, anything to make it work:)
- I have now mounted the 36-1 wheel (pic at the bottum) and the car starts perfect now,
but the advance problem is still present, so i must be some thing else that have changed it, i will try to uupload one of the old files i have saved from the beginning, and see if that changes it,and upload the 1.0.77 firmware.
This way earliest is 37.5 crankdegrees BTDC (max commanded ignadv is 63.75 degrees.
This is from the helpful [VEMS FORUM]
There are trigger errors when cranking, though the wiring seems OK
- and i cant seem to find any info, regarding the "advanced filtering" settings, if that maybe can help filtering that out
- GenBoard/UnderDevelopment/FirmwareChanges, (toothrel_normal and toothrel_missing ) multitooth advanced filtering so thresholds can be set for what is considered as long-gap (eg. 125-420%, in actuality 60/30 and 90/60), and what is short (eg. 16-100%, in actuality 30/90 ).
- car will sometimes backfire when cranking
- on the MS site, i asked a guy who run there subaru trigger,he had the same cranking problem and that was fixed with software,as he is able to see in megatune,that it was caused
Could this maybe also be the problem here??
- the "crank minimum usec" shouldn't cause that (you can set it to 370 usec, that is 20 degrees at 9000RPM, or you can even try 0). If it's too high, high-RPM triggerinput will not be believed
- We yesterday tried to see if we can fix the trigger problem, when cranking, as it´s almost impossiple to start the car(it´s firing totally random,but it will suddenly , after 5min with cranking burst into life, like there is nothing wrong.
We could then only try some differents things,
We mounted a 3.3kohm pullup on both the cas and cam, buth then the car gives no idication of being willing to try to start.
THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTEN THING TO GET TO WORK, as it´s this is not something that can be lived with
I would like suggestions to make this work fast!.
Can it run on a 4-1wheel, as i then can remove 3 teeth, or can the vems not read this as weel?, or do i have to make a 36-1 wheel?.-I'm trying to use this method on a car here nowadays.-FERO
- thanks for your comment, I have been told to make a new 12volt+ wire to the vems, directly from the batteri, i will try that, but i´m positive that will make no change,
- I have now had a external 12v+ directly from the batteri ,2days, and it have indeed started a lot better,so this have something to do with it,still not great.
Tonight i will get a 36-1 wheel made, as this is a costumers car, and i simply think that i cant have the car here anymore,so i will take the timing belt of again,So i can try this, and if that fail, i will then change to another box.
But i hope and belive that 36-1 will work.
Scop pics we captured the other night first pic is pin 3(yellow) and pin7 green this is from the primary trigger.
next is a closeup of the same
This does not look right as there is lots of noise on pin 7, maybe this is the problem with the cranking problem?
Very good, this measurement might get us closer. Can you try with WBO2 disconnected ?.
- We did last night some measurements again, and there is no change to unplugging the wideband, or disconneting the power to it, or removing the iac plug,You do realise that it´s pin7 and not pin12, that this measument is from?
So i do suspect it to be someting we the camsync.
Tonight i will on the Impreza mount a 36-1 wheel, then we see what happens.
- The best way to start first, is actually with no WBO2 (use a failed old sensor to plug the exhaust). Dumping fuel during initial startup attempts can decrease sensor lifetime by dozens or even hundreds hours.
- The car have allready been mapped, and run fine, it just takes 2-5min to start it!
- also make sure that HV spark wires are away from trigger cables.
- They are weel away from the wires on the Impreza, and the Legacy runs cops.
next is secondary trigger pin3 yellow and pin 7green
This looks more right
- today i mounted a potientiometer on both cas and cam ,to ground, to make pulldown,
Can any of you that know comment on if this triggerwheel looks like it can be read be a VEMS ecu, as i dont have more time to mock around, with a car that cant start probbely, becourse of the vems not being able to read the oe trigger wheels like i hoped it could,but cant.
I have just had this made, if all other fails, 36-1 subaru triggerwheel, can now be made really easy.
Link to some info to how ms extra does subaru, can any of you see what the vems is missing to filter the noise, if this ms extra setup works, interesting that they trigger on raising egde
Another link with a sulution to ms setup with the exact same symtems as i got when cranking.
http://www.msextra.com/viewtopic.php?f=91&t=28092
We scoped the oe dwell time, and that is 3ms.
- Now cranking 200 RPM (OK),
- car runs fine, when it is started, only cranking is out of sync
- but sometimes backfires during cranking?
- this is worse when the weather is colder, and better when warmer, like now.
This is a cranking scope shot
Crank and camsensor signal scopeshot
CH1 is crank signal
CH 2 is cam signal
- looks OK. VR (LM1815 input) triggering on falling edge of the EC36/27 and EC18/12
Also measure DC voltage of both triggers (engine off, but ignition on).
- EC36/27 DC measurement: ...0.50volt (primtrig sensor: 1.9k Ohm)
- EC18/12 DC measurement: ...0.01volt (sectrig sensor: 1.9k Ohm)
This subaru legacy is running the 6/7 trigger setup
as it seems no one have had this running with a VEMS yet, i hope to have some help setting this up,
I will, then document it,so it will be pnp for other users.
D.10/7-2008 :This is the current setting.
Firing order 1-3-2-4
primary_trigger=29
secondary_trigger=59
tooth_wheel=02
trigger_tooth=00
another_trigger_tooth=03
crank_minper=BC
BAD: tooth_wheel_twidth1=00
BAD: tooth_wheel_twidth2=00
cam_sync_r_edge_phase=00
cam_sync_f_edge_phase=00
reset_engphase_after=04
Date:6marts 2010
Subaru trigger firmware 6/7 related stuff, link to another ecu manufactor, the G10 Impreza is the classic one, with the 6/7 trigger setup.
Please read before making firmware,as this can come in handy
http://www.syvecs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=110
http://www.syvecs.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=118
date:16april 2010
screendump from Vemstune 1.1.72 primary and secondary trigger,
- is it right that secondary trigger is off ?
- no. As you write above, secondary_trigger=59 (enabled). Try the following:
- choose the "subaru" configlet (the others will NOT work for a subaru). Use newer vemstune if needed. Do not forget to send and burn values.
- check that "next trigger tooth" == 3
- check that tooth width is 180 degrees
- Also the ign outputs cant be stepper as this is used for steppermotor on my99/00 Impreza(that also runs wastedspark)
- true. Anyone will need to adjust his ignoutputs anyway. 2,3,2,3 might be a reasonable default ? (assuming wasted spark transformer on ign output channels 2 and 3)
date.24april 2010
Is the ref tooth table in the default subaru trigger right?
- yes ! Regardless of firing order. Tweak the ign outputs, and not the ref tooth table !
Firing order is 1324,and NOT 1342 as normal!!
- so pair the outputs as 1-2 and 3-4 (not 1-4 and 2-3 as usual)
I use only 2ign outputs, ch0 and ch1 as it runs wastedspark.
- Output 2-3 is recommended if you drive the coils with IGBT (not logiclevel coils), because that is available even on a vems with only 2 IGBTs. But it should work anyway. Set the ignition outputs for the outputs you use. Wasted spark is no problem at all. Any trigger with secondary trigger is suitable with fully sequential COPs, wasted spark or distributer. And VEMS firmware supports them all.
