Having seen MembersPage/NanassyPeter/CloneInstall it became apparent that it's possible to make something in 8000 Euro (at least in Hungary) that leaves most Ferraris, BMWs and factory Subarus standing at the starting line. That engine is quite amazing, will be a champion when the bottom is matched to the qualities of the intake/exhaust. I'm not aiming for that. Will settle for much less HP (for less money and work), but still much fun.
Recipe
- 20VT - 5 cyl 4 valve, turbo
- 4WD
- good intake
- after the throttle, the ends of 5 pipes arranged in a circle around a cone, in the firing order of course
- tube from charge cooler to throttle might need to go around the radiator, not a big problem
- good exhaust
- no surprise
- turbo
- good bottom-end
- might be costly
- engine management
- will be no problem with genboard
The nice part is that starting from an 4WD Audi 80 - what model year did you have in mind?
- it's possible to start from something working for 2000 Euro, and build gradually
- genboard v3.x engine management
- turbo and exhaust system
- intake system
- the good bottom end likely won't be needed at all, 280..310 crank-HP should be good for me for long (not aiming to leave the ferraris behind)
The minimal and the ultimate
- The 10V head is dirt cheap, but is counterflow (correct), which I don't really like. But still enough for the target HP. Will need to investigate this further.
- If investing 800 Euro in a good intake, it obviously only makes sense with the 20valve head (and turbo).
Since the engine management part won't be a problem (eg. I can add boostcontrol or launch or ALS without external help), the head is the main decision. Since 10V and 20V cost difference is relatively small compared to total cost, the 20V might be cheaper if I decide to push it further later. So going 20V is very likely before the first investment in mechanical or intake/exhaust mod.
But buying a car first, and installing genboard. Should most of the project be planned before these? Or enough after the purchase ?
If you buy a 80 with 10v engine, you would waste time and money installing genboard first, if you plan on ever going 20v. Best way would probably be to do it all at once, remove the 10v head and all the CIS stuff, and since you have more space with that stuff out, take care of the wiring. And it's no point upgrading the 10v exhaust and inlet since it won't be compatible.
Sigh.
I just have to watch not to spend too much time on it, to leave time on software and HW and business development.
There are several 5 banger engines with some very little differences compared to the others.First you have to decide to which route you want,10V or 20V.The main problems (or better issues) are,
- oil squirters (all turbo engines have it ,and some later NA engines too,but you may want to use the stock block for lagality stuff)
- All '89< gasoline 5cyl have them. and all 5cyl (except mc1 and 2 and some rare) gasoline blocks are pretty much identical except for bore.
- bore sizes vary from 79.5 81 82.5
- 10vt cranks have smaller diameter connecting rods
- On turbo models yes, N/A 10v are the same as 20v turbo and N/A
- piston selection for 20V turbos are liited because
- bore (20vt stock 81mm
- 20v N/A 82.5mm
- you cannot use 10vt stock turbo pistons because the CR will drop to unreasonable values
- 10v N/A pistons, though not as sturdy as 10vt pistons, will give a turbo friendly CR of ~7.8 with 20v head.
- bore (20vt stock 81mm
- 10VT has AWFULL exhaust manifolds
- 10VT is very prone to knocking
- 20VT exhaust manifold isnt much better ,but still can put out 350HP,20VT has no problems with knock
- 20V NA cylinder heads are cheap but needs some machining for water manifold.
- The machining that needs to be done to get it to 20vt spec is; 6 extra studs for exhaust manifold, not that necessary if you brace the turbo agains the block or head. 3 ~20mm ports and 3 tapped holes for water manifold, also not 100% necessary, but it probably gives more even flow of water through the head. possibly tapping 1-2 extra holes on the top for AAN/ADU valve cover. Those are the only differences. 7A are usually much better since they haven't seen the high temps of the 20vt heads, and are therefor almost never cracked in the combustion chambers.
- almost all 5 banger stuff is interchangeble and upgradable,but some of them needs machining,so first better ask,then buy anything,we have all the experience in this,so just ask:)
- this applies to the bottom end, most 10v head stuff isn't interchangeable with 20v.
1.Build up your own engine with dirtcheap parts (this might be time consuming,but we have all the connections and the knowhow for this)
Hybrid
20vt/20v (with or without machining) on 10v N/A bottom end. Usually at least only 1/5 the price of a stock 20vt.
OR
2.Buy a working hopefully mostly stock engine and install that.
10VT aka the cheapo 165HP-182HP-(URI 200HP,impossible to find one)
all distributor based
all K-jet injected
CR from 7 to 8.4
bigger turbos from factory what needed
20V NA
7A this is with the ultimate cams,needs some machining for full 20V turbo spec 170HP - also needs modification to drop CR if turbo converted
20VT aka the mighty
3B dizzy with motronic,loooooong intake plumbing 220HP
ABY just the same with cop 230HP
AAN another intake,much shorter :) 230HP
ADU the infamous RS2 engine powered by porsche,so its not cheap
better EM,bigger turbo for its 315HP
Building the ultimate
There are some infos about stroker conversions as well.This uses the 2.5l TDI engine crank,and your choice of block (the TDI is taller).It can be very pricey ,but using and buying the right parts,this can be the ultimate streetquattro,with approx 500-700 RPM lower boost treshold with the same turbo in a 2226ccm,TORQUE all the way.Though it will not rev like a normal 2.2 (as romour says),for the street its the best.Currently we have 2 stroker engines,we will see the results!!:)
Detailed Technical data here:
http://www.audi100-online.de/Technik/Motor/motor.html
http://www.audi100-online.de/Technik/Motor/Turbos/turbos.html
Comments from Emil
Mikael Pihlblad got his 10 valve audi 100 down to 7.93 on 201meter streetrace. using stock internals, the list of mods on that car was the following
- Super T70 pirate copied turbo off ebay for almost no money
- Home made exhaust manifold
- Stock intake manifold
- Head ported by Jörgen, stock valves
- Decent camshaft, bought used very cheap
- Pirated intercooler off ebay as well
- 1000 cc Delphi injectors
- E85 fuel
Should be somewhere right above 400 hp in that engine.
PhatBob: Part of business development 'is' having a demonstration car, and you do 'need' a demonstration car :-D
Collected 4 candidates from that I lost because of a stupid keystroke ;-) First I made the mistake of specifying lower price limit (filtering out some interesting candidates)
In short,
- S4 is 1600 kg, better condition, and more family friendly. But weight eats the power.
- S2 is lower weight, more torture by sporty drivers
Ideal candidate
- light 1300kg Audi 80 or S2 chassis
- quattro
- manual gearbox
- cheap because not running because of ECU and/or MAF problem
- good condition
- air conditioner
- located near Budapest
- registered as a low-power 2L 10V but has a 2.3L 20VT engine ;-)
- 20VT engine
- 20V or even 10V is acceptable, since MembersPage/NanassyPeter has 20VT engines
Also look at the sub 1000 EUR cars without licence (usually from Austria or Germany that are not feasible to register because of crazy high registration fees. good for parts).
Dropped:
[S4 quattro turbo sedan] 1600 kg is TOO HEAVY
- appr 3030 EUR
- 216000 km (driven in countryside. The car is in Miskolc, not Budapest)
- 2229cm3, 169 kW
- TODO: ask if 5 or 6 speed.
- manual AC. check condition
- too shiny, most likely chasses repair
Audi 80 2.0 quattro 5 door
- EUR 3527
- 1994 / 4
- 160000 km
- 1984 cm³
- 85 kW (116 LE)
- 1330 kg
- 1694 EUR
- 1990
- 2309 cm³, 125 kW (171 LE) Good turbo cams -Jörgen
- no AC
- 2069 EUR
- 1991 / 6
- 100 kW (137 LE) 2309 cm³ Sorry, misstook this for a 7A 20V when I saw 2309CC. Forgot about the NG -Jörgen
- air conditioner
- 1605 EUR
- includes an extra set of rims with almostnew wintertires (used for 1 winter)
- good-looking interior (nothing special)
- 1988
- 2300 cm³ 98 kW (134 LE)
- differential switch-button found inside, but does not work
- AC yes, but not operational (likely needs gas-fill)
- located very close: 17.district Zrinyi u.103 (backyard, Vas Tamás, weekdays 8-17h or later)
- 4400 EUR (1.1MFt)
- it was stolen and found. Some paperwork in progress.
- good-looking exterior and interior
- 1998 quite new. Because of minor bumper repair needs some paint(finish)
- but quite heavy (quattro is 3770lbs = 1708 kg)
- 2.8L V6 fills the engine space (turbo NOT feasible). Would be some motivation to complete oddfire V6 code (is it oddfire or even fire?)
- triptronic gearbox
- 6speed manual (TDI) gearbox can be swapped in if we cannot make triptronic work with VEMS ECU (they said it's not CAN, but separate gearbox-controller; should be no problem)
- any feedback on the above ?
- AC yes, only needs gas-fill
- the heat-exchanger (AC and coolant radiator) placement is much better than audi80
- located very close: 1171 Zrinyi u.103 (backyard, Vas Tamás, weekdays 8-17h or later) tel: 253-6171, 253-6172, 256-7724 (neither seems to work)
Engine bay length
- is it possible to swap in a 2300 cm³ 20VT ?
- does the 5cyl fit in ? wideness is plenty, but we must question engine bay length. Was it ever factory-equipped with anything else than V6/V8 ?
- [this other A6] might be equipped with I5 (2300cm 171 Hp 20V NA I5) ? Emil's parts supplier says 2.4L is V6. But:
- emil_ has driven one of those with a I5 TDI at least This means the engine bay is long enough for I5
- turbo is a must for 2.3L 20V
The below are Not streetlegal.
But perfect to
- play with
- for parts
- air conditioner can be added for cheap, eg a 200 EUR non-street-legal car has AC
- it was pointed out that non-quattro is NOT feasible to convert to quattro (using parts from another car)
[Audi 80 QUATTRO sedan FOR PARTS]
- 820 EUR
- 1991
- 2000 cm³,101 kW (138 LE) most likely 4cyl 16V DOHC If it is a 16v fourbanger it has huge potential while still being in cheap tax class. Head is said to flow slightly better then I5 20v, but that doesn't make up for the displacement disadvantage. 60-80kg lighter then 20vt!!! Makes handling MUCH better. -Jörgen
- switchable middle differential
[another Audi 80 2.0 QUATTRO - for parts, only 540 EUR] was SOLD OUT (immediately)
[another 20V quattro for parts]
- 928 EUR
- 2300 cm³, 124 kW (170 LE)