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IMPORTANT: enter the case-INsensitive alphabetic (no numbers) code AND WRITE SOME SHORT summary of changes (below) if you are saving changes. (not required for previewing changes). Wiki-spamming is not tolerated, will be removed, so it does NOT even show up in history. Spammers go away now. Visit Preferences to set your user name Summary of change: Having seen MembersPage/NanassyPeter/CloneInstall it became apparent that it's possible to make something for appr. 8000 EUR that leaves most Ferraris, BMWs and factory Subarus behind (in normal road circumstances or even during drag-races). * MembersPage/MarcellGal/PowerAndTraction/PnpHarness * MembersPage/MarcellGal/PowerAndTraction/FuelDelivery * MembersPage/MarcellGal/PowerAndTraction/AirConditioner * MembersPage/MarcellGal/PowerAndTraction/Alternator * MembersPage/MarcellGal/PowerAndTraction/DashMesh ---- '''[http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/block/ pictures about the engine pieces] ''' * note that [http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/block/almost_factory_k26_26/ almost_factory_k26_26] folder contains pictures about and installed almost factory K26-26 setup. That is NOT mine (the main coolant radiator is in front, not at the left side) ** on pics 36..39: '''NOTE THAT THE INTAKE MANIFOLD THROTTLE PLACEMENT ON THAT ENGINE IS RATHER SUITABLE FOR A FRONT-mount charge cooler'''. On the other hand '''on my 3B intake manifold throttle placement seems very bad for a turbo install'''. One end of a frontmount charge-cooler connects to compressor outlet fine; but the left-side of the charge-cooler is VERY FAR from the 3B throttle, must go around the engine bay as bad as it can get. Should I try to find an intake like that on pic 36..39 ? * look at [http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/block/head/ head] ** looks nice, no cracks at the sparkplugs ** from pic0012 and pic0013, can you confirm this is the turbo head ? The holes for the extra-coolant manifold under the intake valves confirm this, right ? ** for now, the normal camshaft will stay (not changing to 7A) * do you notice anything noteworthy ? ---- We '''accept that the max power of this engine will be limited by the following parts''': * K26/27 turbo, especially with the #6 turbine housing ** though K26/8 housing might be tried later * the factory exhaust manifold ** though nicer manifold is not ruled out * the factory charge cooler ** this will be changed later * maybe pistons as well ** Pistons are fine for 500++ hp but rods are maxed out after 500 Nm, they can take even more beating if bearings are ok and there is no detonation ** and JE pistons and Eagle-H-profile rods are clearly overengineered: much stronger than needed for K26-27 turbo. But the package cost was reasonable (high-specs engine with head under 3000 EUR - without turbo and exhaust manifold) Effectively, max power (on the crank) that can ideally be achieved with this setup is estimated max 380 .. 400 HP. We don't want to stress it further because: * many parts (at least the ones in above list) should be upgraded to get even just +50 HP ** this would delay the project and draw attention from our main focus: to get the electronic, firmware, config and docs part completed * 380 HP is already dangerous enough * we want a streetable car. This means we want boost at around 3000 .. 3500 RPM, and we don't want to sacrifice reliability for further performance '''Engine specs''' * JE pistons ** CR ??? * eagle H-rods * Gotz sputzen bearings * metal head-gasket * factory intake manifold * exhaust manifold for K26/6: under investigation (using the factory manifold if a new proper manifold does not arrive) As you see, this is inhomogeneus. Sounds stupid to use those pistons and rods (good for 600..900 HP) when the turbo limits power to appr 400 HP. However, we had a short timeframe and limited supply. So we chose a built (by experienced parties) bargain engine for appr 2500 EUR instead of a used "junkyard-engine" for 1600 EUR (though that had more spare parts). This way we can reduce the risk of wasting (more!) time because of mechanical problems. And possibly have some room for more HP for future upgrades. ---- The 20VT (5 cyl, 20 valve turbo) engine is quite amazing * intake and block are very good (intake allows >400 HP if other parts do support the air), with good supply of aftermarket pistons and rods if one wants more * factory turbo is restrictive unless one settles for 250..270 HP * factory (casted) exhaust manifold is a joke. Noone knows the real performance, probably it gets restrictive above 350 HP, and makes airflow differ in the cylinders. Most tuners will install a new exhaust manifold (with a bigger turbo of course) ** though some say even the factory exhaust manifold works well up to 400 Hp. It's hard to tell the flow difference between cylinders. * the drivetrain (gearbox, differentials and other pieces) of the audis that came with this engine is very durable, this makes it a low-budget option to make a high performance car ** though they understeer, which can be helped somewhat with right suspension, but some understeer will remain. * and last, but not least, leaves enough room in the engine bay for extras, and maintenance '''We purchased''' a * street-legal Audi 200 quattro turbo (paper says 1400 kg without driver and fuel: a bit heavy, but not insanely) * with (known broken, see pics below) 3B (20V 5 cyl turbo) engine (and harness) ** though 3B harness is different than AAN harness, all the main points are the same. The small wiring differences, including 1 or 5 ignition outputs are '''very''' easy to apply ** After a few unfortunate events (like after a negotiated deal for an engine we would have purchased, the guy finally decided he keeps the engine), '''the new engine is scheduled to arrive on 2007-04-05'''. I'm very excited about it. However *** if I understand right, it is the engine with 5 COPs (AAN), not the distributor head. This means we need a few more wires and ignition transformers. Or, maybe we use a bigharness (or make a custom harness?). Even if we use ECxx connectors on this, perfectly suitable for testing everything. The mapping to motronic-55 (for either 3B or AAN type of loom one might have) is trivial. A guy who purchases the PNP asked that we test the PNP setup on his AAN harness. *** no firm deadline has been established yet for the engine mechanical installation (oil, coolant, charge cooler, generator, AC compressor) *** but we will have 3 or 4 audi 5cyl 20VT engine installs in Hungary just in the first half of April in any case. We understand the potential in these engines and want to support tuners around the world who chose this engine. The '''most important target''' of this install is '''to get the InputTrigger/AudiTrigger install procedure as simple, painless and reproducible as possible''' * doc improvements * v3.x assembled with 55pin motronic for PNP install (reusing the MAF and NBO2 wires for the WBO2), possibly min 2..3 versions: ** 1 coil harness ** 5 coil harness ** TODO: evaluate the other 55pin pinouts out there ** not sure if the K-jet harness is easy to support at all * perhaps with firmware and logging mods / suggestions, to help finding and fixing trigger issues '''Near-future plans with this install''' * '''20VT - 5 cyl 4 valve, turbo''' * 4WD - leave as is ;-) * leave factory intake for now ** DROPPED idea of highend intake: after the throttle, the ends of 5 pipes arranged in a circle around a cone, in the firing order of course (tube from charge cooler to throttle might need to go around the radiator, not a big problem) ** CHOSEN: factory intake is good enough for us * get a working bottom-end (the block in the car we purchased was broken). This should be hammered before 2007-03-15 * engine management VEMS K26-6/27 turbo, the K27 compressor looks like (cm scale): http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/turbo/K26_27_compressor_m.jpg ---- '''Exhaust and turbo''' - advice accepted, I have no experience here We missed a nice looking 500 EUR exhaust manifold (auctioned 2007-03-29 on ebay.de) A friend purchased [http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/AUDI-2-2L-20V-RS2-S2-S4-K26-EXHAUST-TURBO-MANIFOLD_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQcategoryZ33742QQihZ001QQitemZ110110256869QQrdZ1QQsspagenameZWDVW 187 USD RS2 exhaust manifold] from [http://search.ebay.com/audi-rs2-exhaust-manifold_W0QQfkrZ1QQfromZR8QQsubmitsearchZSearch ebay] * it's actually 187 + 100 USD with shipping to Eastern EU * as you might expect, the weldings look good outside, not so perfect inside. But not very bad either * friend will try to stick (bigger than K26/27) turbo on his manifold, without extra strengthening (for street use). I think that is a bad idea, the exhaust manifold will crack (sooner than later) due to heat and vibration. ** I would definitely strengthen: connecting to near engine-mountpoint (seems best: turbo is very close to engine mountpoint in the audi, 8..10cm: only watch some clearance for securing screws). Connecting to head is another option: but that is further away, seems suboptimal. ---- '''Turbo (compressor side) upgraded''' to K26/27 (appr 6xx EUR). Good for max appr 400HP. Minor compromise is that '''it is now an oil-only turbo''' (=> no watercooling: if I understand right, keeping watercooling would require some overpriced factory parts that just aint worth it). The K26 turbo was upgraded by http://www.ahturbo.hu/ with instructions: * '''to upgrade compressor side to K27 with rotor sizes 53mm/76mm''' ** turbine wheel dia=56mm, compressor dia=53mm (would be useless with turbine smaller than compressor). ** turbine outlet is 56mm diameter (the 6 in KKK numbering scheme). It's the clone of a proven setup (that worked well in an engine built by them earlier). Perfect for the street. * turbine renewed (but housing kept) * oil-only accepted (no water-cooling) K26-6 turbine housing (cm scale): http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/turbo/K26-6_turbine_27_compressor_m2.jpg * Kalske says: Remember that RS2 turbo is 48/54 which is good for about 360, you are getting 53/55 which will do 400++ ** Nanassy said exactly the same ! * Kalske and jhwh say: the same turbine wheel goes into 3 different A/R housing, marked (in KKK numbering) 6,8 and 10. Higher nr gives more power (appr 45 HP each step), but boosts later (3000, 3500 and 4000 RPM, respectively). ** so turbine housing="8" is the best choice for this turbo. Stay away from 10. 6 is not optimal, but works. (and 6 might match the restricted exhaust manifold and factory charge-cooler and street-operation better than the other turbine housings) ** you should look for a cheap #8 house. On [ http://forums.rennlist.com/rennforums/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=72 rennlist] you can probably get a 8 housing next to free as many people upgrade ** if you come over a good deal on one it should only be a minor mod, remove turbo, remove housing, bolt back on * AFAIK KKK uses cm2 rating on turbines instead of A/R (on Garretts, and so on...). I guesstimate the 8cm2 turbine will provide a quick spool-up (maybe in the 2200-2800 rpm range on a 2.2l engine), which means big fun on street, and some restriction in the top-end power. -GergelyLezsak- ---- '''Later''' * bigger injectors will be necessary to utilize the bigger turbo ** maybe higher pressure FPR (or FPR springs?) * possibly water injection You can find some pictures under [http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/MarcellGal/Audi/ files], including * old engine with cyl1 wall knocked out by rod; cyl1 rod shrinked 10mm !! ---- '''Links''' * [http://members.aol.com/c1j1miller/200-specs.html Audi 200 specs] ** this engine does not seem to have cruisecontrol capability (huge "idle-valve" or throttle actuator) * [http://members.aol.com/c1j1miller/repair.html Repair manual] - awesome resource * http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Audi_100 * [http://audi100.selbst-doku.de/Main/EnglishHomepage self-documentation wiki] original selbst-doku.de is German, and the English is just a babelfish auto-translation (not recommended to edit the English) Optional: Add document to category: Wiki formatting: * is Bullet list ** Bullet list subentry ... '''Bold''', ---- is horizontal ruler, <code> preformatted text... </code> See wiki editing HELP for tables and other formatting tips and tricks.