##  ##  
 ####### 
 ####### 
 ## # ## 
 ##   ## 
         

         
         
  #####  
 ##  ##  
 ##  ##  
  #####  
     ##  
 #####   

         
  ###    
   ##    
   ##    
   ##    
   ##    
  ####   
         

 ##      
 ##      
 #####   
 ##  ##  
 ##  ##  
 ##  ##  
 ##  ##  
         

         
         
 #    #  
 #    #  
 #    #  
 #   ##  
  ### #  
         

IMPORTANT: enter the case-INsensitive alphabetic (no numbers) code AND WRITE SOME SHORT summary of changes (below) if you are saving changes. (not required for previewing changes). Wiki-spamming is not tolerated, will be removed, so it does NOT even show up in history. Spammers go away now.


Visit Preferences to set your user name
Summary of change:
After some consideration of my options, I'm almost set on going with VEMS for engine management. Anything that's cheaper is far less intelligent, anything that's more intelligent is also more expensive. The car is an '89 S13 200SX w/ a built CA18DET engine. 1809ccm, 4 cyl, turbocharged, intercooled, multipoint sequential FI, COP ignition. ---- === Starting attempt === Unsuccessful, won't start. Symptoms: * + engine cranks, RPM shows up, ~180 * + MAP shows 90kPa * - doesn't smell like fuel at all at the exhaust, I don't think fuel is injected. Cranking pulse is 1.9ms (1809 ccm disp., 1000cc injectors.) * - can't make triggerlog, after the first logged white(sectrigger?) pulse, RS232 communication is lost (returns in a few seconds after closing triggerlog window OR when cranking is stopped '''<- TBC which'''). When triggerlog window is not open during cranking, comms stay up. * / Nissan count shows 16. As in, '''16''' is the value shown in the Nissan count gauge. Not 104, which would mean 16 sectrig pulses, according to the manual. Is this bad, or was there an update in the software to show actual length but not yet updated in the manual? Because 16 '''is''' the correct length of the longest window, see CAS chapter below (16,12,8,4). * / '''TRIED''' both Pri.trigger settings of Rising edge/60 BTDC, and Falling edge/28 BTDC, no difference * / '''TRIED''' also Nissan_SR20_16_4_8_12 trigger settings, which looked quite strange, no difference Will attach screenshot of triggerlog in the evening, but as described, one white pulse, and it's over, comms break. ::At 115200 and 57600, triggerlog freezes communications. ::http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/triggerLog_57600_115200.jpg :: '''Sometimes''' there are 2, 3 sectriggers recorded, sometimes even a primary, well, it's a game of luck, depending on the position the engine stopped last time, I suppose. :: The triggerlog is '''functional''' at 19200, but secondary pulse count was incorrect. In the one issue I've tried, 167 sec pulses were counted between two primaries. There must be 90. '''Suggestions received from VEMS support:''' * move RS232 ground to EC18-pin17 :: * no change, but RS232 comms definitely problematic :: * when COM port in Win Dev Mgr is configured at above 19200, VemsTune data reception is laggy, intermittent. E.g. I keep moving the throttle pedal, and every 3 seconds, there's a 1 second pause in the gauge. A '''power cycle''' of the ECU fixes this, as it falls back to 19200. * So, high-speed serial doesn't work, that's one thing, but the engine not firing at all feels unrelated to this. '''Ideas:''' * increase injector latency at 8 and/or 10V? Got the latency values off the Internet, seemed credible, though. ---- '''Q/A With Vems Support''' Lets start with the basics, to diagnose why you might be having problems getting the engine started, could you provide: * triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds no ignition or injection fuse; a common cause for triggerlog failing is either ** cranking too short (keep a minimum of 8-10 seconds) ** ecu reset when starting to crank caused by power dips, easily solved by connecting a strong battery near the engine not in the booth or using some small battery. * triggerlog of engine cranking 8-10 seconds no ignition or injection fuse '''in safe mode''', to trigger safe mode, change VT->Ecu calibration, prohibit low byte from its current value to some other value and burn, remember to put back the original value when done * vemslog of a similar cranking sequence (cranking 8-10 seconds, no fuses) Please upload these files with appropriate names to FileArea (or other storage space) and link here I'll review and make some suggestions on how to proceed (and what to adjust). Thanks! Best regards, Dave ---- '''Re: Q/A With Vems Support''' Hi Dave, my problems at the moment are twofold: * 1. high-speed serial comms do not work (see above, 19200 works, more is problematic) * 2. engine won't fire Do I need to fix #1 before I can address #2? I have the Nissan stock CAS, that's 180 sectrig pulses per crank rotation. This is the highest frequency of all CAS's out there that I know of. Do I need higher RS232 speeds than 19200bps to make an accurate triggerlog and/or vemslog? I don't think my ECU resets during cranking, I get continous quick updates of the Vbatt value in VemsTune during cranking @~8V, I'm guessing serial comms would disconnect, and the gauge would freeze, if the ECU would reset due to low voltage. I can make logs tomorrow afternoon, if 19200bps is enough. Kind Regards, Balazs ---- Hello Balazs, A1. Serial comms over 19200 is not needed at cranking, if your serial communication is working stable at 19200 no need to worry. A2. We are not aiming to actually start the engine just yet, first we need to diagnose if everything on trigger side is working properly A3. ~8v during cranking is definatly way too low, attach a big fully charged battery to front with proper jumper cables (no booster) as suggested by me earlier. To get to the bottom of this: * apply trigger configlet: "Nissan_4cyl_SR20_360_16-4-8-12_Camsync" '''do not make any setting changes to this, even if it looks strange''' and press burn * power cycle the ecu * make sure you have 4 window sensor connected to primary trigger * make sure you have the 360 window sensor connected to secondary trigger * supply the triggerlogs and vemslogs i for earlier (using that exact procedure) and upload the actual triggerlog and vemslog files (not png screenshots or other) somewhere, link them here. I'll review and make some suggestions on how to proceed (and what to adjust). Thanks! Best regards, Dave ---- Hi Dave, I've uploaded a .triggerlog and .vemslog with the Nissan_SR20_16-4-8-12 trigger defaults (powercycled the ECU after burning). They are of the same cranking run. http://www.vems.hu/filethingie.php?subdir=BlownHemi_11454 I didn't do the prohibit_h thing, I just pulled off injection and and ignition in the engine bay (it's quite quick and simple in my case, just 2 connectors next to each other). I've charged my battery, last time it was seriously depleted from all the cranking I did before. It's now cranking ~9.5V, as you'll see from the vemslog. After I made the logs, I've also cranked a long one with injection and ingition in place. I took a few deep whiffs afterwards from the tailpipe, and it's as if I can detect a faint smell of gasoline. What's a realistic cranking VE value? Is the cranking pulsewidth in the ballpark for this configuration, conditions (~25*C)? 1.8 liters, 4cyl, 1000cc low imp. injectors? Also, for some reason, from time to time, I find that injector settings change from Simplified to Traditional. Simplified was my setting, but I've checked after the logged cranking, and again it has gone back to Trad.. I've set it back again to Simp. During the logs it was still Trad. Does the Nissan_SR20 default or something else implicitly change this setting? The triggerlog look quite different from when I've tried with my own settings. Without the Nissan_SR20 defaults, I had lots of white columns with some blue columns, now it's just blue+green pairs, no whites. I'm guessing this setting changes internal trigger behaviour substantially. I've looked at quite a few pages in the wiki and almost all of the manual during the research phase, and didn't find any details about these trigger options. It's just a basic "if you have this, select that" guide. I'm not expecting a deep system level documentation about the workings of the trigger circuit/software, but a ''bit'' deeper explanation might aid in self-diagnosis for those of us who are not just pure petrolheads, but engineers as well. Thank you in advance for any help, Kind Regards, Balazs ---- === WORK IN PROGRESS === ---- Aligning VEMS with the engine: ===== POWER ===== See FSM page {{EF&EC - 80}} for wiring diagram. (ECCS = ECU in Nissan CA18DET terminology) :Original ::The ignitions switch goes into the ECU, there it activates a low-side switch, which operates the ECCS relay. The ECCS relay supplies the actual 12V power to the (rest of the) ECU. || ||color||function|| ||ECU pin 16||R/B||switches on/off the ECCS relay|| ||ECU pins 49,59,109||B/W|| ECU power supply|| ||ECU pin 45||B/R|| Ingition switch, ign. on: 12V|| :VEMS ::VEMS has no provisions for this mechanism, it just needs its switched 12V, the end. We need to add this simple switching circuit ourselves, like this. All that is needed really, is a switching transistor. ::http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/VemsPower.jpg ::This is a quick and easy way to adapt one system to the other. Probably not the best one, but certainly better than powering VEMS from the Ign.Switch signal directly. ::For now, I'll just solder this directly into the wiring, cover all leads in heatshrink, and then ducttape the whole thing. DIYFTW! :) ::(Maybe a capacitor for filtering Ign. switch bounce? Gate resistor if a FET is used? '''TBC'''). * NPN (BC817 or similar with a 2k .. 2k7 base resistor) is usually better for such things. Less sensitive than FET (which can be killed more easily, and badly needs Rgs). ** Flyback is a good idea in any case (eg. 1n4007 diode across coil, with cathode on coil+. Some suitable diode is included in rescue kit) * Second idea for power... just because I have everything lying around for this. Don't know about the catch/flyback diode across the coil, I'd have to open up the relay housing for that, and they're sealed up tight. ::http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/VemsPower2.jpg ====== MAIN INPUTS ====== '''Air metering''' :Original ::MAF :VEMS ::4bar MAP + IAT (already have both) ::MAP will be mounted externally, close to the IM, shortest possible tubing ::5V supply comes from the ECU ::IAT is a BMW type, res./temp diagram '''TBC''' :''Wiring changes - MAF'' ::Cut off MAF at the pigtail, it's 3 wires (12V, GND, signal). Use these for the MAP sensor, which also takes 3 wires (5V, GND, signal). :''Wiring changes - IAT'' ::Need to look for a suitable wire that will be freed up, and goes to the throttle body area, where the IAT will be located. ::*1 or 2 wires? Ground wire could be spliced into the ECT/TPS ground B wire, which is right there. Only 1 additional wire needed then. ::*Idle switch? 2 wires from ECU, and idle switch is not used in VEMS, but '''TBC'''. '''Crank angle, cylinder pos.''' :Original ::mounted on EX cam, disc has two concentric rings for two optical pickups with OC outputs ::(pulled on up ECU side) ::http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/ca18detCas.jpg ::Outer ring has 360 slits ::Inner ring has 4 windows w/ lengths in slits: 16, 12, 8, 4 ::'''CHECKED''' no. of degree pulses for Window slits High/Low ('''H''' L '''H''' L '''H''' L '''H''' L) '''16''' 74 '''12''' 78 '''8''' 82 '''4''' 86 ::'''CHECKED''' 16 pulse window corresponds to Cyl 1. According to a few Internet sources, Rising edge of 16-slit window is '''60 BTDC'''. Which sounds logical. :: For '''primary trigger''', will either use: ::::* Rising edge w/60 BTDC ::::* Falling edge w/28 BTDC (window length is 16 sectrig pulses, that's 32 crank degrees) :: '''Secondary trigger''' will use Nissan special trigger option, sync Cyl#1 to Window longer than 13 sectrigger pulses ("Ignore pulses shorter than" option) ::http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/cas4.jpg :: :VEMS ::using the same CAS with the "nissan 360 degree secondary trigger" option :''Wiring changes'' ::The ''TDC'' (inner ring) and the ''angle'' (outer ring) signals are both wired double into the ECU, on pins 41+51, and 42+52, respectively. Probably a good idea to solder these together, before crimping it into a connector. ::'''JDM swap guys''' and '''RHD M/T guys''' should check their wiring/colors on FSM page {{EF&EC - 82}}. It's a bit unclear, the ''TDC'' and ''angle'' signal has the same wire color (G/B). Label them before you cut. '''Engine coolant temperature''' :Original ::NTC regular type, 2.5kOhms at 20*C, 300Ohms at 80*C :VEMS ::using the same '''Throttle position sensor/switches''' :Original ::Idle switch, closed when pedal released ::TPS ~1kOhms - ~9kOhms for fully released, fully pressed, respectively :VEMS ::using the same, except idle switch is not normally considered (although it can be connected to a free analog input of course). Mixing in idle switch (pulling to GND, but through 10..20k) into TPS signal (for a voltage "step") is superfluous and should not be justified, TPS has all the information without this anyway. '''Knock sensor''' :Original ::1 channel, piezo type, mounted between #2 and #3, shielding grounded to ECU ground :VEMS ::using the same '''O2 sensor''' :Original ::N/A, stock narrowband removed, Bosch 4.x installed ::'''TBC''' 4.2 or 4.9 ::'''TBC''' for any special requirements for an extension cable, twisting, shielding, etc., or just simple wiring :VEMS ::using the Bosch 4.x WBO2 directly ====== MAIN OUTPUTS ====== '''Ignition''' :Original ::Individual coil on plug, ECU outputs logic 5V signals for each cyl. ::*5V signals go to power transistors mounted in engine bay, these drive the individual coils :VEMS ::using the same, putting out 5V logic signals '''Injection''' :Original ::lowZ injectors with dropping resistors mount in engine bay :VEMS ::need possibility to drive either highZ or lowZ-s injectors, so "active flyback" option required ::'''Q:''' do low-Z injectors still need dropping resistors? '''Idle Control''' :Original ::no idea, probably the same as any other Japanese vehicle from the same era, 2pin terminal, 12V PWM :VEMS ::using the same :::*I would suggest to '''replace it with something simpler - i.e just one PWM valve'''. The original system contains 4 separate items: 1) A mechanical valve that closes when the coolant heats up; 2) A mechanical screw for adjusting the base idle; 3) A PWM valve that only changes the revs about +-200 rpm when hot (too little to use just that); 4) A valve for extra air when A/C kicks in. ::::* Thanks for the info, didn't know the idle valve was too small, now I get why all that extra mess is there. I've planned to '''get rid of the on/off AAC''' (no A/C) and the mechanical air regulator, too. ::::** How about running both IAC and AAC off the same PWM signal? Would that work and have the capacity to regulate idle across the whole range? (I don't want to buy/build anything extra I don't necessarily need.) ::::** Or, is there a cheap, off-the-shelf or junkyard idle air valve from another make/model that would work in place of the mech. air regulator? I could install that in the parking lot. ::::*** Seems like a BMW M43-M50-M52 idle valves would almost work, except one of the 2 air hose diameters are not the same, as the CA18 air regulator. Would have to stretch the silicone over it. Most engines have suitable idle air valve: * 4 wire bipolar stepper (lowest consumption) * or BMW style 3-wire 2-input PWM valve * or 2 wire 1-input PWM valve (the simplest) '''Fuel pump control''' :Original ::low side switch :VEMS ::using the same ::'''Q:''' any "modern" features, like 6V operation, PWM closed loop w/ fuel press. sensor? '''Questions so far:''' Flyback type: which one for lowZ, lowZ+R, HighZ? * 30V for High-Z (or lowZ+R), or active flyback if low-Z inj planned (to have the option to run without series +R). ETC: for 2wire ETC, where is the 2nd wire connected? * Between the 2 "bridge" outputs, see [http://vems.hu/vt/help/v3/v3_electronic_throttle_control.html VT Help] ** this engine has mech throttle, right ? *** By ECT I meant Engine Coolant Temperature. :) It's just the lingo I'm used to. Triggers: * primary=HALL * sectrig=HALL, in order comment "Nissan 360 pulse HALL" (so smaller C103 cap is fitted than for the standard normal low toothcount sectrig) ** also refer to this page in order comment and add some signal/hangouts/skype/webrtc access if possible (for some discount; normally discount is only granted after successful documented install, but anyone who is prepared to a certain degree, deserves all kind of help from others too: prefer IBAN/pay later option, so full amount is not paid). ---- '''Questions round #2''' :How difficult to add inputs later, oil pressure, EBP, VSS, etc. ? ::* :I need a WBO2 extension cable. Any special requirements for this? Get one from ebay, or build it myself? ::* :Does VEMS use free-air cali. or the built-in resistor? ::* :What is the current version of the genboard (2016 May)? (which schematic should I look at, if needed) ::* :IAT, MAP, TPS, CLT... ground? Can all be common? Is any one of the grounds preferred for a sensor ground? ::* :Injector flyback compatibility table, is this correct? || ||30V flyback||active flyback|| ||High-Z||'''Y'''||'''N'''|| ||Low-Z+R||'''Y'''||'''N'''|| ||Low-Z in PWM mode||'''N'''||'''Y'''|| ::How difficult to convert later from one to the other? (I'm intrigued by the idea of PWM-ing my Low-Z injectors, but I don't know if I'll need other Hi-Z injectors later or not.) ::* :Tach. signal - Nissan RPM gauge needs a voltage level. Any DAC outputs, or should I just add a properly sized RC filter to a PWM output, e.g. EC36 pin 4? ::On second thought, it ''may'' be PWM, FSM is foggy about this. Maybe I'll try without the RC first. Is there a test-mode to play around with the RPM signal before the engine is running? ::* '''Purely what-if, theoretical questions''' :How complicated to convert to 6-cyl later? ::* ---- ||Switched 12Vs||B/W, 49, 59, 109||all come from ECCS relay, connected inside the harness|| ||Grounds||50, 60 and 110, 20,07,108,116||these go to body ground in 2 groups|| '''GROUND LAYOUT (ORIGINAL HARNESS)''' ||ECU pin||function||proposed usage||notes|| ||50<br />60||CAS GND<br />Air.Reg. GND<br />Shdg. CAS<br />Shdg. NBO signal<br />Shdg. KS<br />Shdg. MAF||tie to Sensor GND||goes to Engine Ground 1|| ||10 20 107 108 116||FICD GND<br />Ign. Trans. GND<br />Inj, Idlevalve, NBO heater returns, probably<br />'''seems like a Power GND'''||use as Power GND '''TBC''' how thick? ||goes to Engine Ground 2|| ||26||MAF GND||tie to Sensor GND||originated from ECU|| ||30||TPS GND<br />ECT GND||tie to Sensor GND||originated from ECU|| [http://gtlamateurfest.uw.hu/nissan/2013-01-CAS-oscope/GroundWiringDiagram.jpg Orig. Ground Wiring](HUGE) '''Wire assignments''' (that I already know): ||ECU pin||color||orig.func||location of remote end||VEMS pin||new function||comment|| ||1||R/W||Ign.1||d/c||EC36 pin 35|| ||TTL output req.|| ||2||R/Y||Ign.2||d/c||EC36 pin 33|| ||TTL output req.|| ||3||R/G||Ign.3||d/c||EC36 pin 34|| ||TTL output req.|| ||11||R/L||Ign.4||d/c||EC36 pin 36|| ||TTL output req.|| ||101||W/B||Inj. 1||d/c||EC36 pin 7|| || || ||110||Y/B||Inj. 2||d/c||EC36 pin 19|| || || ||103||G/B||Inj. 3||d/c||EC36 pin 8|| || || ||112||L/B||Inj. 4||d/c||EC36 pin 20|| || || ||41||G/Y||CAS TDC strobes||d/c||EC36 pin 27||primary trigger|||| ||51||"||"||"||"||"||"|| ||42||G/B||CAS degree pulse||d/c||EC36 pin 13||secondary trigger|||| ||52||"||"||"||"||"||"|| ||18||B/P||fuel pump relay||d/c||EC36 pin 15|| ||low-side switched|| ||54||Y/W||Idle sw. -||TB left side||EC36 pin 28|| || || ||27||G/B||MAF signal||front of engine||EC18 pin 6|| || || ||26||B||MAF ground||front of engine||TBD|| ||was common with other B pins in Nissan ECU|| ||57||Y||idle switch +||left side of throttle body||EC36 pin 2||IAT|| || ||48||LG/R||TPS supply||d/c||EC36 pin 29|| || || ||38||LG/B||TPS signal||d/c||EC36 pin 1|| || || ||30||B||ECT+TPS ground||at TB||EC39 pin 5||sens. comm. GND||Q|| ||7||Y/R||tach. signal||d/c||EC36 pin4|| ||voltage level or PWM?|| ||106||SB||idle control valve||d/c||EC36 pin 17||idle control valve||picked Inj_H channel for this (PWM)|| ||23||W||knock sensor||d/c||EC18 pin 1|| || || ||28||L/OR||ECT signal||d/c||EC36 pin 14|| || || ||16||R/B||ECCS relay||d/c||n/a|| ||own switching circuit, see top of page|| ||45||B/R||Ign. switch||d/c||n/a|| ||own switching circuit, see top of page|| ||58||R||Constant 12V||d/c||n/a||EC36 pin 23||FLYBACK, direct path to Injector common (resistors common)|| ||29||W||Lambda sensor||d/c||n/a||EC18 pin 13||WBO2 (Nernst) signal|| || ||115||L||lambda heater||d/c||n/a||EC18 pin 18||WBO2 heater|| || '''New wires to be laid for new functions''' || ||LB||WBO2 pump+||WBO2 area||EC18 pin 9|| || ||Y||WBO2 pump-||WBO2 area||EC18 pin 7|| || || 'TBD' ||MAP +5V||rear of intake manifold||EC36 pin 28|| || || 'TBD' ||MAP signal||rear of intake manifold||EC18 pin 6|| '''Wires still needed for new functions''' ||||Oil pressure. sensor||will add later|| ||||EBP sensor||will add later|| ||||Water temp. sensor||will add later|| ||||Water pressure sensor||will add later|| '''Wires freed up''' (no equivalent function on VEMS, or not YET assigned to a VEMS function): ||ECU pin||color||function||location of remote end||comment|| ||6||G/Y||A/C relay||? a harness around the exhaust side||low side switch|| ||17||?||Check Connector||? inside|||| ||32||?||Check Connector||? inside|||| ||33||?||Check Connector||? Inside|||| ||43||OR||starting signal||? key, probably|||| ||44||G/OR||neutral switch||?probably merges into harness around firewall|||| ||46||L/G||A/C switch||? inside||(A/C switch + blower on) -> 0V|| ||47||?||Check Connector||? Inside|||| ||53||Y/G||VSS||from gauge cluster|||| ||56||?||A/T control unit||?||could be missing|| ||111||PU||PR control solenoid||next to ign. power transistors||low side switch|| ||115||L||lambda heater||?O2 orig. location|||| [NOT YET FINISHED]
Optional: Add document to category:
Wiki formatting: * is Bullet list ** Bullet list subentry ... '''Bold''', ---- is horizontal ruler, <code> preformatted text... </code> See wiki editing HELP for tables and other formatting tips and tricks.