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== History (Getting this thing started) == 06-08-2015 So we got the ignition gun (Analogue) and thought we were on to the next step, even so we had problems keeping the engine running smoothly - But it turns out the ignition signals on cyl 1 and 3 is so vague that the gun can't pick up the signal, works fine on cyl 2 and 4. Also removing injector connector 2 and 4 has great impact on the engine in idle, 1 close to no impact and 3 some ... We have tried to switch out the coil and the leads + we tried inverting the connections on the primary and secundary trigger with no luck. Config: http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/v3.3_u010400-A-2015.08.06-11.32.26.vemscfg Logfile: http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/v3.3_u010400-2015.08.06-11.32.29.vemslog Triggerlog: http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/v3.3_u010400-2015-08-06-11.32.40.triggerlog ---- '''Review''' Hello Lars, I have reviewed your triggerlog and vemslog. * triggerlog: looks good no obvious trigger problems there engine remains in perfect sync and timing of events on all cylinder seems even. * vemslog: period seems uneven indeed, if pulling the injector plugs makes little difference than either: ** the injector is not working properly (perhaps stuck or fooled a simple free-air spray-test should show that) ** the ignition coil is not firing properly; have you tried the ignition tests mode with the coil spark leads connected to 4 grounded spark-plugs to see if both (wasted spark) coils are working properly ? Ignition test mode is available in VemsTune->Base setup->Ignition output visual, select testing mode->On and use the test buttons. Looking forward to your report, Best regards, Dave ---- 06-08-2015 '''Update''' Hi Dave, Thanks for responding - i apreciate all the help I can get. * Injectors ** I have not yet testet the injectors, cause they worked perfekt on a previous car - But i'll do that later to day. * Ignition ** I changes the PIN 10 to 34 and 24 to 36 in the EC36 connector = No change ** I switched out the coil = No change ** I switched ign leads 1 to 2 and 3 to 3, switched the outputs 34 and 36 = No change ** I changes the spark plug on cyl. 4 = No change * In general ** Last time i wrote i had problems with my ignition gun - I have now (not confirmed yet) a different result so my trigger setup for trigger after tooth is now set at 100 where it was 85 before ... This means that the engine runs really great, startup is fine, idle is fine, acc. is okay, but above 3.000 rpm or some i have misfiring (As like a cyl or two does not fire properly). I'm gonna get my hands on a new gun tomorrow to make sure my base setup for the timing is spot on .. but this has nothing to do with the fact that the periods are uneven. Config: http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/v3.3_u010400-A-2015.08.06-17.06.29.vemscfg Log: http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/v3.3_u010400-2015.08.06-17.04.42.vemslog ---- Hello Lars, What was the result of the spark testing from vemstune ? I have reviewed your last vemslog, periods seem to behave now all seems good. Your lambda sensor indicates engine is running very lean is it connected and in the exhaust ? If the answer is yes than you might benefit from changing the req fuel like 25% to see if that improves things. Best regards, Dave ---- Hi Dave, * Ignition ** It looks okay at the sparks - when they're out and i test from VEMS Tune ** Ignition is set at 101 (TDC before trigger in Trigger Setup) - With a new and very old gun i'm curtain i get the correct data. So base setup for ignition is done. * Injection ** Unplugging the connectors has similar impact on all 4 cyl. ** With the injectors pulled out in the free air and testing from VEMS Tune i have simular paterns - Looks great ** Lambda is plugged in and calibrated - I did raise some of the figures yesterday and achieved a lambda that give me data and not simply 1,83 all the time ;) - I'm gonna reset the figures and raise the req fuel next * General ** Noticed that balance in VEMS Tune is not the cyl - VEMS Tune 3 is cyl. 4, 1 is cyl. 3, 2 is cyl. 1 and 4 is cyl. 2 ** Tested engine compression - Difference is below 0,5 bar all around (11,5 > 12,0 bar) Regards Lars ---- Hello Lars, All seems well then, engine just needs some tuning; Adjust the fueling so the engine idles around 0.95 lambda and tune the rest of sites in low load rpm direction the map accordingly; That should solve your misfiring; If not please report and provide vemslog showing idling at around 0.95 lambda and misbehave when rev up and i will review. I'm not sure why your wiki edits keep stating "HELP NEEDED" ? You are moving in the right direction. Best regards, Dave ---- Hi Dave, I would expect periods that does not differ this much - Even if i set the RPM to 3.000 i have a great difference in my period / balance view. My problem now is (As i see it) * Cylinder Periods ** Uneven - Cyl. 3 and 2 are way lower than Cyl. 4 and 1 * Small misfire ** When idle i have periodic misfire - if the gun is on i can see i'm missing a fire from time to time - My dwell time on the coil is now set at 3.52, but i need to investigate what is the correct dwell time (Motorsport Development says on there website: The new Cosworth coil pack driver runs various different dwell periods depending on engine RPM.) * Fuel Map ** To reach a lambda below 1 i have to set my map around 165 in the VE table up to around 1500 RPM - On the road, when i go above 1500 RPM i'm getting data as i expect. so fx. in the area 1500-3000 RPM and 30-100 Kpa i'm around 52-70 in the VE Table (Look great), but going below 1500 RPM i have to set the tables around 165 to achieve a lambda around 1 and that is way to rich. ---- Hello Lars, The period difference is not that much but seems to be caused by some unevenness in the trigger wheel on crank (difference between 3->1 and 2-> 4 is about the same), you could try inverting crank VR polarity (as a test) to see if that reduces it, '''take care this also alters timing calibration''' Keep in mind of the units used in the relative power window (/injector calibration) it is in microseconds -> I do not see any alarming individual power difference at idle, take care of the units: average diff is around 200-250 usec, rpm period @880 rpm is around (1/(880/60))/2 = 34msec so its only a 250usec/34msec * 100 = 0.735% difference (when taking the worst case 250usec reading) actually quite even. No need to worry Good dwell for a wasted spark coil is usually between 2.5 and 3.5 msec. If you have another vemslog i need to review, feel free to ask. Best regards, Dave ---- Hi Dave, Okay, i see that the balance thingy is not worth looking further in to - Also i'm pretty sure the effect of disconnecting the plug on the injectors are alike on all four cylindres. Issue: Lambda data and VE table is way off .. Since i got this thing started I have only seen 1.83 lambda, and that continues up to around 2200 RPM, where it starts to move down. My conclusion - When i have 1.83 in lambda the engine sound good, the idle is around 750 and the exhaust look good, but when i try to reach lambda closer to 1 my engine drowns, the rpm drops and the exhaust goes black smoke / rich mixture. I have made to config / logs - one is with a VE table at 52 and one is with a VE tabel around 90 - When VE table is 90 the engine almost cant do idle, it smells of gasoline and black smoke is seen from the exhaust = Very rich mixture. Please have a look VE @ 52 - Tested at TPS 0 and TPS 7 http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/config-ve52-tps0-tps7.vemscfg http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/log-ve52-tps0-tps7.vemslog VE @ 90 - Tested at TPS 0 and TPS 7 http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/config-ve90-tps0-tps7.vemscfg http://www.vems.hu/files/MembersPage/Au2Stedet/GinettaG33Cosworth/log-ve90-tps0-tps7.vemslog ---- == Todo == * Calibrate lambda - '''DONE''' * Check 16 deg BDC is spot on- '''DONE''' * Check 16 deg BDC is spot on all 4 cylinders '''DONE''' * Change reg. fuel to 25% more (From 12 to 15) '''DONE''' (Does not fix the fuel/air ratio - Lambda still 1.83) * Change lambda - Tested with a Bosch LSU-4.2 '''DONE''' (No change) * Change polarity on primary and secundary trigger '''DONE''' (No change - Cant start when wires are switched) * Check the ignition 16 BTC mark for all four cylindres '''DONE''' * Find out correct dwell time on specific coil - * Change coil to other model (Peugeot) - ---- = Project GINETTA G33 = *Ginette G33 conversion – VEMS Ver. 3.6 *Place Au2stedet ApS, Ryomgård in Denmark *Date 19. Juli 2015 *Responsible Lars Normark Holmgaard == History == The Ginetta is equipped with a 1991 Cosworth YB engine producing standard 220 HP. The standard ECU is Magenta Marelli also know from other cars. The car was upgraded somewhere around 1992 with larger injectors (Bosch 803), larger actuator, 3 bar map sensor and an unknown performance chip. Our customer was told that the car produced 330 HP when he bought it a couple of years ago, but on the dyne the car produced only 220 HP plus we noticed that the car was running poorly at curtain rpm - other from that the car was running great, turbo is small enough to keep the car agile. == Going for the 330 HP == First of all we did calculations for the injectors, turbocharger etc. and found out that this setup was not going to give us more than 275 HP - We then did all the initial tests, like sensors, triggers, engine health, fuel pressure etc. to find out where this YB engine was missing something that could limit it to the low power output on the dyno. We ended up with a lot of approved tests, but were strange ignition and lambda maps - so we ordered a Motorsport Development performance chip for the car and according to the specification on the car - Unfortunately we also found that one of the pins on the chip was broken and welded to the socket. On the cosworth we usually use an emulator to map the car and burns the chip later on, now this was not possible anymore, but even worse we found that the installed Pectel babyboard was a non-supported version. So instead os spending more time on trying to fix something thats not easy to fix and/or get parts for we went for the VEMS instead. == Specifications / Technical Data (Cosworth YB Engine) == *Sparkplug, gap = 1 mm *Firing order = 1-3-4-2 *Idle speed = 850 rpm *CO = 1-2% @ idle *Distributor, type = Marelli breakerless *Distributor, rotation = Cloclwise *Distributor, static advance 16 deg @ idle (Not adjustable) *TDC Sensor, clearence = 0,6 mm - 1,0 mm *Fuel pump pressure = Above 10 bar *Fuel regulator pressure, not running = 3,2 - 3,8 bar *Fuel regulator pressure, running @ idle = 2,7 - 3,3 bar *Boost = 0,7 bar *Water/Air temp. sensor = 6 Kohm @ 10 deg, 3,75 kohm (Or 3 volt) @ 20 deg, 2,42 kohm @ 30 deg, 1,6 kohm @ 40 deg, 1,08 kohm (Or 1 volt) @ 50 deg, 0,75 kohm @ 70 deg, 0,38 kohm (Or 0,3 - 0,5 volt) @ 80 deg and 0,27 kohm @ 90 deg == Specifications (For the VEMS project) == *VEMS Ver. 3.6 ECU 4 IGBT + 4 logic level / internal MAP *Standard turbo charger *-31 Actuator *Bosch 803 injectors *3 bar map sensor *Wasted spark (Ford Motorsport coil) *3 bar fuel pressure *Standard pri. and sec. trigger *Standard sensors *Bosch 300 cc/min injectors (280 150 951) *Sparkplug, gap = 0,4 mm NGK Iridium R/S ---- == Injektors == The Cosworth has 4 injectors that the VEMS can manage individual – The injectors is connected to a ignition plus (87) when ever ignition is on and controlled by a ground signal from the VEMS. When reusing the original wiring harness ignition plus is already present – The following was moved from the original ecu to the VEMS *Pin 35 > 7 EC36 (Injector 1) *Pin 32 > 19 EC36 (Injektor 2) *Pin 33 > 8 EC36 (Injector 3) *Pin 18 > 20 EC36 (Injector 4) In this case we used Bosch injectors (280 150 951) witch delivers 300 cc/min. Injector resistence is 16.5 ohm In Base Setup > Engine Setup you'll need to define what injectors the VEMS are working with – And to do that you have to calculate the injector size. The formula is req_fuel = 6.49 x engine cc / number of injectors / injector flowrate – And in this case 6.49 x 1998 / 4 / 300 = 10.8 Input 10.8 in Req Fuel and 300 in injector flowrate. You also need to tell the VEMS what injectors are in use, how many etc. ''Go to Base Setup > Injector Outputs Visual'' In this case we set Real cylinder order to 1-3-4-2 and as a default check the boxes from the left top to the right bottom (Cyl 1 = Output 1, Cyl 2 = Output 2, Cyl 3 = Output 3 etc.) When only using four injectors you have 4 extra outputs that you can use for idle regulator, fuel pump relay etc. In this case we used Outpot 5 for the idle controller, Output 8 for the fuel relay and the rest for future use. Note that you'll be able to se what pins are correspondent to the outputs, so these should match you wirering harness to worth the injectors. When set you can test the outputs by choosing ON in Switch testing mode and activating the individual output. These Outputs are ground controlled so you could connect the volt meter to plus and the control pin on the injektors connector to check the signal – Same goes for idle controller and fuel pump relay etc. == Ignition == The VEMS can manage the ignition in several different ways – in this case we switched out the old coil and distributor setup with a passive coil from a Ford engine (Also known as a DIS coil). This coil has 3 pins. I could have used the wires from the TFI module, but instead i choose to go with a new set of wires - This way i'm curtain nothing goes wrong from the VEMS to the coil. *Pin 1 > Signal from the VEMS (PIN 10) *Pin 2 > 12 Volt when ignition is on *Pin 3 > Signal from the VEMS (PIN 24) *Body > Ground (To avoid any disturbance connect this ground cabel at the same locations as the VEMS ground cables inside the car) The firing order is counter clockwise 1 – 2 – 3 – 4 when the plug turn against you looking down on the coil. Setting up the ignition default values in the VEMS for this Cosworth engine is rather easy and is just a much related to the pri and sec trigger as anything. ''Go to Base Setup > Primary trigger settings'' In the dropdown for Defaults choose the lancia_cosworth and press burn. This changes the setting for the primary trigger and the timing on the Cosworth engine. ''Go to Base Setup > Ignition Settings'' Set Ignition Outputs In Use to 4 ''Go to Base Setup > Ignition Outputs Visuals'' Choose 1-3-4-2 in Real cylinder order, choose Ignition Output 6 for Cylinder 1 and 4 and Ignition Output 7 for Cylinder 2 and 3. Note that Output 2 is 24 in the VEMS and Output 3 is 10 in the VEMS, witch goes to pin 1 and 3 on the coil connector. (6/8-2015 - Switched PIN 10 to 34 and 24 to 36) Don't worry about pins 1 og 3 on the coil, if you switch then you can easily switch then in VEMS Tune. Again, if needed you can test the outputs by selecting ON in Testing mode and activating the individual output. Now ignition and trigger settings on the Cosworth is a nightmare - I would, anytime, recommend that you put on a new triggerwhell (This one has only 4 triggers) and new stranded wires for both the pri and sec trigger. == Setting up the triggers == ''Go to Base Setup > Primary Trigger Setup'' *Number of teeth on wheel = 8 *First trigger tooth = 0 *Next trigger tooth = 2 *Angular width of tooth = 90 ''Go to Base Setup > Trigger Reference Tooth Table'' *0 = 0 *3 = 2 *2 = 4 *1 = 6 Before cranking you'll need to adjust the base timing - Remove the injector plugs, sparklplugs and the fuel relæ before doing this. ''Go to Starting / Idle > Priming, Cranking, Afterstart Setup'' Set Crank Ignition Advance to 0 (Remember to set this back at 9 degrees when base timing is done) Note - The Cosworth engine has a mark in the engine block when this is aligned with the marker on the crankshaft ignition timing is set to 16 BDC and when the nearby tooth is aligned 0 TDC So you'll need to set your ignition gun at 0 degrees and check if the tooth alignes with the marker on the engine block. If not, you'll need to adjust the TDC After The Trigger (Base Setup > Primary Trigger Setup). Try adjusting this value down at around 85 degrees and check again. Do this procedure until the tooth is aligned 100% and then burn the value. == Lambda == In this case we are using a Bosch Wideband LSU 4.9 lambda unit. With your VEMS you should recieve a wirering harness for the Lambda - Before connecting the VEMS, the connector on the wirering harness make sure you have the correct termination for the lambda !!! LSU 4.2 and LSU 4.9 is NOT the same !!! Lambda Wirering Harness VEMS *PIN 1, Red Blue PIN 9 EC18 *PIN 2, Yellow Grey PIN 17 EC18 *PIN 3, White Red PIN 18 EC18 *PIN 4, Grey Purple IGN+ (In this case connected to the fuse box with a 3A fuse) *PIN 5, - Brown - *PIN 6, Black Black PIN 13 EC18 And please keep in mind that the wirering harness is subject to changes in wire colors, so this documentation might not work out in all cases. Setting LSU4.9 in the VEMS ''Go to Base Setup > Wideband Settings'' Controller type is Wideband if your using the LSU4.2 or LSU4.9 Is your configuring a V engine with two banks you should enable Second Chanel also, is this case we only have one Lambda so we're good. In Channel 1 choose LSU 4.9 For calibrating the lambda ''go to Tools > WBO2 Calibration'' == Power, ground, main relay and fuel relay == As described in several documents, guides and papers you'll need to connect the VEMS power supply, fly back and ground connections secure and away from any noice like from the engine bay. In short you need separate supplies for main power and flyback and the ground is to be connected secure to the car's ground inside the car nearby the VEMS ECU. In this case I installed a new fuse box for the project - The fuse box has one supply directly from the main relay (Controlled by the ignition switch). The VEMS power (PIN 25 EC36) is connected to the fuse box on a 3A fuse and the flyback (PIN 23 EC36) on a 10A fuse. The VEMS has 5 ground connections (PIN 26, 5, 21, 22 and 32 in EC36). All ground connections are connected to a solid ground inside the car and with wires not longer than 50 cm. To be sure the grounding was solid I drilled a hole in the frame under the dashboard and mounted a 8 mm bolt. Also you'll, on a car like this, need to check the ground connection from the batteri to the frame and from the frame to the engine - it is crucial that the ground is steady in all corners of the car. The Ginette has the complete wirering harness from the Sierra Cosworth ECU/Engine so i choose to reuse both the main relay and the fuel pump relay. The main relay supplies the injectors and other components that need ignition power, so all i did was solder a new 2,5 m2 wire on to PIN 87 on the main relay - this wire is connected to the mentioned fuse box. Main relay wirering *PIN 30, Red/white is battery+ *PIN 87, Red and Black/blue is the output (+ when ignition is switched on) *PIN 86, Black is ignition+ *PIN 85, Blue/yellow is ground The fuel pump relay was not that easy - in fact i thought i could reuse the relay and the wirering and simply connect the VEMS control ground, but I thought wrong. I ended up rewirering the relay completely *PIN 30, Red is battery+ *PIN 87, Black/red *PIN 86, Black/blue is ignition+ (Connected to the mentioned fuse box) *PIN 85, Blue/green is VEMS pump control output (PIN 17 EC36) To setup the fuel pump signal you ''go to Outputs > Fan / Water Pump / Fuel Pump'' In the buttom of the windows you need to choose INJGroup in Fuel Pump Channel and in this case output 7 (Corrosponding to PIN 17 EC36). To check the setup ''go to Outputs > Output Channels'' You should ne able to see this settings in the dropdown for Fuel Pump Channel - Choose ON in Switch testing mode and activate the output on the right side besides the Fuel Pump Channel - When testing unplug the relay or the fuel pump! == Air intake temperature == The sensor is supplied with a common ground and returned to the VEMS PIN 2 EC36 through the sensor. == Engine temperature == The sensor is supplied with a common ground and returned to the VEMS PIN 14 EC36 through the sensor. == Crankshaft (TDC Sensor) == The Cosworth has two triggers - crankshaft trigger on the front of the engine and crankshaft in the distributor. The sensor is a VR type sensor where VR- is connected to a common ground and VR+ to the VEMS PIN 27 EC36. More information under Distributor. == Distributor (Secundary Trigger) == The sensor is a VR type sensor where VR- is connected to a common ground and VR+ to the VEMS PIN 13 EC36. In this case i converted the ignition to wasted spark with a Ford Motorsport DIS coil (Same as the Zetec DIS coil) so I mounted a alu. plate on the top of the distributor instead of the original top. The sensor is, as described, connected to a common ground in the original wirering harness - This common ground is connected to all sensors in need of a ground and this lead to the ECU under the dashboard. The common ground is stranded so i should work out of the box. In this case I found that the sensor was generating a lot noise when cranking the engine. ''Go to Tools > Record Trigger'' When the window pops up wait 5 sec., then crank the engine to visual monitor the signal from the VR sensor - You'll need 15 sec. of output to be able to analyse the data. Note that you should remove the sparkplugs, coil connector, injector connectors and the fuelrelay so that you do not damage anything. Also i noticed that the output was not there right away - I had to crank the engine for 20 sec. before even receivingg any data from the sensor - The reason for this is that the ignition switch cuts power for the VEMS when moving from ignition to cranking … So the VEMS firstly need to reconnect to the PC before receiveng any data. In the end i caved in and produced new wirering cables for both VR sensors - In this case i found that a XLR cable has great standing so that's what i used together with new Bosch 2 PIN's connectors. == Idle solenoid == The engine idle is controlled by a solenoid valve where the ECU rapidly switches the ground to allow the valve to adopt the required positionto regulate the idle speed. The solenoid is connected to the common ignition+ and the VEMS PIN 9 EC36 (Also known as output 4 in the injector group. To setup the fuel pump signal you ''go to Outputs > Output Channels'' In the dropdown for the Idle Solenoid Channel choose Injector output 4 (7A) Grounding, InjGroup Choose ON in Switch testing mode and activate the output on the right side besides the Idle Solenoid Channel - When testing unplug the connector and connect a test lamp. == Throttle Position Sensor (TPS) == The TPS sensor is also not very complicated on this Cosworth - The sensor has three PIN's where it is supplied with ground, 5 Volt and outputs it's signal on the last pin. Sensor Magnetti VEMS Other *PIN 1 11 Common Ground *PIN 2 30 29 5 Volt *PIN 3 17 1 Output Signal In VEMS Tune you'll need to calibrate your TPS sensor. ''Go to Tools > TPS Calibration'' Follow the instructions on the screen, it's fairly easy - but very necessary. == PC Communication (RS232) == Before you can connect the VEMS to VEMS Tune on a PC you'll need to connect the RS232 cable to the VEMS. RS232 Cable VEMS *Brown 17 *White 14 *Green 15 And please keep in mind that the wirering harness is subject to changes in wire colors, so this documentation might not work out in all cases. When connecting to a PC you'll need an RS232 port or a USB to RS232 adapter and then the RS232. == Round == The Round display can be installed permanently in the dashboard to monitor al kinds of data, like boost, lambda etc. The Round is to be connected to ignition+, ground and the VEMS RS232 cable - Yes, the same cable as you use to connect the PC, so both can't be connected as once. Red wire goes to ignition+ and blue to a solid ground. == RPM == - == Other settings (Random order) == ''Go to Base Setup > Engine Setup'' Set Number of cylinders to 4 Things to keep in mind The VEMS can be configured with an internal MAP sensor or an external, if you choose an external you can reuse the Cosworth MAP sensor, but keep in mind that the std. sensor should be switched with a Motorsport 3 bar sensor. In the Magnetti Marelli ECU you'll find the following sensors / actuators that I did not connect. *Timing Adjustment on PIN's 13 and 14 *TFI module on PIN's 25 and 24 (Also connected to RPM, ignition+ and ground). *Knock sensor on PIN's 23 and 6 *Wastegate control on PIN 16 (Also connected to ignition+)
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